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  #21  
Old 03-16-2012
owl145 owl145 is offline
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[quote=James_Oliva;404652]Just once i'd like to read some type of proposal/petition on tis broad that looks like it was written by an adult.

Writing things in bold and in all caps makes you look childish and makes people in administrative positions look down upon your work, even if the message is spot on. Either write like a big boy or hire a copy writer to do it for you.[/QUOTE
On "tis broad"? A petition on "tis broad"
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  #22  
Old 03-16-2012
Greenskin Greenskin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petro330 View Post
Greenskin no big deal we just disagree and I am not sure what level you coach at but tell me this in any average HS wrestling room in the whole country based upon certification what is the average size make up of kids in the room? I will help you

light weights - 106 - 120 = 20 %
Middle weights 126 - 145 = 45 %
light Hwt 152 - 170 = 20 %
Upper weights 182 - 285 = 15%

Why would you add a upper weight and eliminate a middle weight if your trying to maximize participation?

Also in my jaded opinion one of the biggest reason the Upper weights on average are much weaker in depth and talent is that there are not enough good upper weight partners in most HS or MS wrestling rooms to push each other to get better (Ask yourself why does one HS have both a 138 and 145lb wrestlers at states together in any state? PARTNERS) Also one other jaded opinion with some 1st hand knowledge is on average your 1st or second year upper weights will quit the sport much quicker because it's too damn hard and they will go lift to get ready for next football season.
I wish they had not eliminated a middle weight. I think most everyone would agree on that. But, we needed the upper weights to be properly addressed. The way we have been operating clearly wasn't working. There is a large number of big (170 and up) kids who don't wrestle for whatever reason. The kids are there, they just aren't wrestling.

You touch on the quality of wrestling at the heavier weights and the cause being a lack of partners in the room. That is indeed one of the reasons. But the quality of wrestling is not as important as the growth of the sport in terms of appeal and opportunity. If you grow the sport, the quality will come. There will be more kids in the room. The weights needed to be addressed to try and make the competition more equitable. The new upper weights require less weight cutting. It gives bigger kids a better chance to succeed. I think too many people worry about a state champ at the upper weights not being real state champ material and that attitude is getting in the way.

This will be a steady but drawn out process. Good coaches that are driven to succeed will recruit big kids to fill those positions. Other coaches will realize they must do the same to succeed. Success will breed success and the upper weights will grow. But it will take time. We can boldly step into a new era and establish a framework to make it happen or we can remain lockstep in our old ways. I think the former will be better for our sport. Change is difficult to accept but necessary for the evolution of our sport. Every sport changes and those changes are designed to enhance competition and improve fan appeal and interest. I think the new weights will help achieve that.

If the same effort was in place to embrace the changes and make them work as there seems to be to stay with our old ways, how much more likely would it be to succeed? I can look at the participation numbers at each weight and see the distribution in rooms across the state and country. I can also see the "quality" of wrestling at different weights. I won't argue those numbers or observations. That doesn't mean they are right or couldn't be significantly improved upon. At some point resistance to change becomes the problem, not the change itself.
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  #23  
Old 03-16-2012
eagle eagle is offline
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As a coach

I don't like the new weight classes. Looking at the JV numbers is the best way I have seen yet. If you can not fill a JV spot at a weight that means you have one wrestler (maybe 2 if one is Fresh) at that weight. If a team has five wrestlers at 152 and one at 182 it shows the lack of wrestlers at the upper weights.

I don't believe we should be looking at the lowest weight wrestlers can wrestle. We all know that once you get over 171 very few wrestlers are at their lowest weight. Every team has wrestlers that are at 195 and the certification says they can wrestle 145. We should look at what they can wrestle at at 12% in the upper weights.

So, how many wrestlers are there that can wrestle at 106-170 at 7% and how many wrestlers are there that can wrestle at 182-285 at 12% or even 15% (because that is realistic for guys this big)

I enjoy watching big guys wrestle who are talented. I don't think adding weight classes to the upper weights helps bring guys out for wrestling and I don't think we should have to constantly try and recruit big guys.
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  #24  
Old 03-16-2012
Mr. White Mr. White is offline
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As a coach I have seen both.

I had one year where we had 3 pretty tough kids at about 200 pounds (the fattest one was about 14%). One kid quit because he couldn't get in the varsity lineup at 215 or 285. He might have tried to cut to 189, but we had a stud there too. All three of our upper weights had 30 win season, the kid who quit would have had that many too if he had somewhere to fit. The new classes would have been perfect because our 189 and 215 were both light for their weights and would have gone 182 and 195, leaving two more spots for the other two kids. Our team would have been much stronger with the new weight classes that year.

Then just a couple of years later we had a log jam in the 130-145 range. We had a kid wrestling 152 who could have gone 135. Our wrestle-offs were basically to see who was going to be forced to give up a ton of weight. With the new weight classes we would have been really screwed that year.

Things tend to fluctuate with most average programs, I believe.
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  #25  
Old 03-16-2012
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advocate advocate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenskin View Post
... But the quality of wrestling is not as important as the growth of the sport in terms of appeal and opportunity. If you grow the sport, the quality will come. There will be more kids in the room.

... Change is difficult to accept but necessary for the evolution of our sport. Every sport changes and those changes are designed to enhance competition and improve fan appeal and interest. I think the new weights will help achieve that.

... At some point resistance to change becomes the problem, not the change itself.
Very thoughtful
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  #26  
Old 03-16-2012
justaguy justaguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotwrestle2 View Post
To back up what I said earlier.
The Dvorak tournament this year: byes by weight class
106-6, 113-7, 120-5, 126-3, 132-3, 138-2, 145-2, 152-3, 160-3, 170- 6, 182-6, 195-5, 220-6, 285-7.
So tell me the new weights are fare. Like I said the new weights cause a bottle neck starting at 126.
That's 28 byes for the lower weights and 36 for the upper. Is that creating more opportunities? IMO NO
They removed a weight class where it is most needed and moved it where its not. End of Story!!!
doubt me check out the other tournaments and prove me wrong.
The number of byes at weights is a concern, yes. However, I am more concerned about the quality of wrestlers at weights. The best way to measure this is by the number of points scored (using the standard 3-4-5-6) by the champion, or the top 2 wrestlers during the tournament.

The more points scored by the champ, the less depth the class possessed (its also possible to have an outstanding champ so looking at top 2 is also useful).

If people looked at things like that, then they could see if there really is a problem (for instance if 220 was a pinfest, or 138 was all decisions after the first round).
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  #27  
Old 03-16-2012
Greenskin Greenskin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justaguy View Post
The number of byes at weights is a concern, yes. However, I am more concerned about the quality of wrestlers at weights. The best way to measure this is by the number of points scored (using the standard 3-4-5-6) by the champion, or the top 2 wrestlers during the tournament.

The more points scored by the champ, the less depth the class possessed (its also possible to have an outstanding champ so looking at top 2 is also useful).

If people looked at things like that, then they could see if there really is a problem (for instance if 220 was a pinfest, or 138 was all decisions after the first round).
I don't understand why you have a problem with the quality of the wrestling in the upper weights. Why does it matter how good they are? Just because the quality of wrestling is not up to your standards doesn't mean the weight class is not legitimate. Using that logic most of the other states' wrestling programs should be abolished because they aren't as good as Illinois'. It takes a little time to build up the quality. More kids means better practice partners which means better wrestlers that develop into better coaches that do a better job of coaching and recruiting big guys which leads to better quality.

Who are you to judge what is "quality" wrestling? Do you only watch the state finals or do you force yourself to sit through dual meets and see kids at all weights that can't get out of regionals compete? I have some breaking news, there are a lot more kids that probably don't meet your quality standards than do and those kids are the heart and soul of this sport. If you doubt that, I guess further discussion is pointless.
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  #28  
Old 03-16-2012
petro330 petro330 is offline
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Greenskin good post, I agree with you they should have added an additional weight and not eliminated a middle weight. But at the NFHS meeting last year the 37 state representatives in attendance voted unanimously against adding the 15th weight class. If you would like I would be more than happy to email you the complete NWCA weight management report as well as the meeting minutes from the NFHS meeting last April? it's pretty interesting stuff, your representative voted for the new weight classes.

I understand your point about embracing change but I have a problem when the changes goes against what I feel fudumentally is bad for the sport but even worse for the kids dedicated to it, I feel the new weights will push solid kids in the middle out of the sport who have been wrestling since they were in 1st or 2nd grade and is the only sport based upon their size that they can compete in at HS to make room for a kid who has to be begged to come out and may or may not stick it out. The problem we have with the sport is creating more opportunities for the kids who wrestle to compete, increase participation will increase retention. Some Idea's to increase participation / retention

1. More JV tournaments
2. Allow for multiple entries per weight class from one team in bracketed tornaments
3. Do the same in POST season let one school send two (2) 132lbs kids to sectionals or districts. Track & Field and Swimming can do it why not wrestling
4. Eliminate single weigh ins for multi - day youth tournaments - PJW's is a two day tournament with one weigh in / crash weight loss occurring way too young

One other point that should be taken into consideration is the Instant success youth sports mentality today (I hate it) kids are specializing way too young in one maybe two sports and now where saying by adding a upper weight big kids are going to come out for a sport that was too tough when they were younger jus can't get on board with that. Kids young and old play sports for three very specific reasons

1. There buddies play
2. The like the coaches
3. They have success at that particular sport

Maybe I am hard headed but the Old weigh classes are better for the Sport and the kids who are dedicated to it. It was the only sport where the size of the heart was more important than the size of the body
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  #29  
Old 03-16-2012
Greenskin Greenskin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petro330 View Post
Greenskin good post, I agree with you they should have added an additional weight and not eliminated a middle weight. But at the NFHS meeting last year the 37 state representatives in attendance voted unanimously against adding the 15th weight class. If you would like I would be more than happy to email you the complete NWCA weight management report as well as the meeting minutes from the NFHS meeting last April? it's pretty interesting stuff, your representative voted for the new weight classes.

I understand your point about embracing change but I have a problem when the changes goes against what I feel fudumentally is bad for the sport but even worse for the kids dedicated to it, I feel the new weights will push solid kids in the middle out of the sport who have been wrestling since they were in 1st or 2nd grade and is the only sport based upon their size that they can compete in at HS to make room for a kid who has to be begged to come out and may or may not stick it out. The problem we have with the sport is creating more opportunities for the kids who wrestle to compete, increase participation will increase retention. Some Idea's to increase participation / retention

1. More JV tournaments
2. Allow for multiple entries per weight class from one team in bracketed tornaments
3. Do the same in POST season let one school send two (2) 132lbs kids to sectionals or districts. Track & Field and Swimming can do it why not wrestling
4. Eliminate single weigh ins for multi - day youth tournaments - PJW's is a two day tournament with one weigh in / crash weight loss occurring way too young

One other point that should be taken into consideration is the Instant success youth sports mentality today (I hate it) kids are specializing way too young in one maybe two sports and now where saying by adding a upper weight big kids are going to come out for a sport that was too tough when they were younger jus can't get on board with that. Kids young and old play sports for three very specific reasons

1. There buddies play
2. The like the coaches
3. They have success at that particular sport

Maybe I am hard headed but the Old weigh classes are better for the Sport and the kids who are dedicated to it. It was the only sport where the size of the heart was more important than the size of the body
Not wanting a 15th weight is an even bigger mystery to me.

As far as size is concerned we are talking about 155-65 pound athletes who cut down to 140-145. That is the weight area that was eliminated. There are actually quite a few sports where kids that size can be successful in high school...football, baseball, track, swimming all come to mind. That's not true for the 106 guys but they didn't get their weight squeezed out.

JV tourneys are great. The kids love them and look forward to them. Nobody wants to just practice all year.

I don't think adding second tier guys for regionals does anything to help find the best wrestler in the state. The practice room is the first round of the state series.

Specialization is pure torture for me. Intuitively I know that you can only reach your full potential for a sport if you specialize....but to what end? I want my kids to be as good as they can be in wrestling but they like other sports, too. And they are pretty good at those sports as well. While one kid may make the top of the podium by specializing another kid may be in the top ten and miss a medal but still be all conference at two other sports while the specialist might have difficulty getting playing time. There are a lot of kids who specialize in wrestling yet there is only one winner each year at each weight class at the state tournament. What did the others miss out on?

If you weren't hard headed we wouldn't be having the discussion. You are a good advocate for your cause...I'm just on the other side of that fence and you can crack granite on my noggin.
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  #30  
Old 03-16-2012
herrin wrestling herrin wrestling is offline
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new weights

As a coach I personally like the new weights. I think the lighter kids have a more aggressive technical style of wrestling. I have had great success taking the lighter kids and adding weight and strength to that type of wrestler and convincing them to stay heavier, and that they could have great success at the heavier weight
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